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- CommentAuthorWael El-Manzalawy
- CommentTimeMay 31st 2006
This is an imagined discussion between a muslim and an atheist. But it is based on my actual discussions with atheists.
Muslim: Do you believe in God?
Atheist: There is no God. Can you prove that there is a God?
Muslim: The universe, the land, the see, the sky, the sun, the moon,….etc are all evidences that there is a God who has created the universe.
Atheist: Can I see and hear the God?
Muslim: You cannot see the God. We have the word of the God which is the Quran. The language of the Quran is Arabic. We –Arabs- know very well that the Quran cannot be written by a human being. The Quran has challenged the old Arabs to write something that resembles the Quran. The old Arabs were genius poets but they could not. Nowadays, some persons tried to write something that resembles the Quran, but they made themselves a joke.
Atheist: Then the Quran is for Arabs only.
Muslim: The Quran is the word of the God for all peoples. Indeed the Arabs can feel the greatness of the Quran more than the other peoples. But the other peoples can read the translation of the meanings of the Quran. They can see the wisdom of the Quran. They can see the scientific accuracy of the Quran.
Atheist: Can you give me an example of the wisdom of the Quran?
Muslim: Islam forbids homosexuality and sex outside marriage. We can see clearly that homosexuality and sex outside marriage caused the spread of AIDS which caused or will cause the death of millions of people. Besides, with Islam, a man can be sure that his son is really his son. But in western countries, a man cannot be sure that his son is really his son.
Atheist: I want to discuss the presence of the God. The universe is created by the God. Who has created the God.
Muslim: The God has not been created. The God is eternal.
Atheist: I can say that the universe is eternal.
Muslim: The universe is changeable, so it cannot be eternal.
Atheist: You did not convince me.
Muslim: I invite you to read the Quran. I invite you to rethink about the common secular idea that there is no God. It is a common idea, but it is completely wrong. -
I invite you to explain anything resembling your faith without once mentioning the Quran
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CommentAuthorMole of Production
- CommentTimeMay 31st 2006
Now with imagination-free honest-to-god atheist responses!
Mr. El-Manzalawy: Do you believe in God?
MoP: For me, it's really not a matter of belief. When atheists talk about what they "believe," it's in terms of likelihoods or even fancy. Religious belief is a different sort of thing. It's about faith. It seems very unlikely that there is any sort of 'god' as most would understand it. It's a slippery word, though, and a slippery concept. I certainly have no faith in god. However, I believe that religion is no more evil than science. Heaven and Hell? Unlikely.
Mr. El-Manzalawy: The universe, the land, the see, the sky, the sun, the moon,….etc are all evidences that there is a God who has created the universe.
MoP: That's all evidence that something very interesting is going on, I have to agree. Did you know that the English word 'invent' evolved from a Latin root--'invenio'--means 'I discover,' instead of 'I create'? It seems that while some cultures feel surrounded by creations, others see even the products of their own labor as happy accidents.
Mr. El-Manzalawy: You cannot see the God. We have the word of the God which is the Quran. The language of the Quran is Arabic. We –Arabs- know very well that the Quran cannot be written by a human being. The Quran has challenged the old Arabs to write something that resembles the Quran. The old Arabs were genius poets but they could not. Nowadays, some persons tried to write something that resembles the Quran, but they made themselves a joke.
MoP: That's interesting. That's a common theme of historical studies of the Bible--clearly these people are trying to tell us something very important to them, but contradictions slipped in. Christian congregations are often not allowed such graceful logic: perfection inspires, but cannot be imitated.
Mr. El-Manzalawy: The Quran is the word of the God for all peoples. Indeed the Arabs can feel the greatness of the Quran more than the other peoples. But the other peoples can read the translation of the meanings of the Quran. They can see the wisdom of the Quran. They can see the scientific accuracy of the Quran.
MoP: My favorite concept from Islamic culture is the rational for haggling. As it was explained to me, Adam Smith's invisible hand of the market can be seen as the hand of God raising and lowering prices as He sees fit. Thus, if a merchant sets a price and refuses to bargain, he is saying he knows the mind of God, which is a sin.
Mr. El-Manzalawy: Islam forbids homosexuality and sex outside marriage. We can see clearly that homosexuality and sex outside marriage caused the spread of AIDS which caused or will cause the death of millions of people. Besides, with Islam, a man can be sure that his son is really his son. But in western countries, a man cannot be sure that his son is really his son.
MoP: Homophobic virgins can be atheists, too. There's no physical required. You don't have to submit an essay. Atheists only agree on one thing: nobody's going to hell because of a coincidence of birth.
Mr. El-Manzalawy: The God has not been created. The God is eternal.
MoP: If that's the case, He must get awfully bored.
Mr. El-Manzalawy: The universe is changeable, so it cannot be eternal.
MoP: So, to be eternal is to be forever doing nothing? Sounds like God is a perpetual college sophomore.
Mr. El-Manzalawy: I invite you to read the Quran. I invite you to rethink about the common secular idea that there is no God. It is a common idea, but it is completely wrong.
MoP: You skipped the scientific evidence. I was looking forward to that. -
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MoP, I salute you....
I'm off to outline the 10,000 or so inconsistencies in the idea of a changing universe and an all eternal God. See you in the next life! -
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CommentAuthorDr. Orphusi
- CommentTimeJun 1st 2006
What I don’t understand is why the imaginary Atheist in this rather one-sided conversation seems incapable of retort. Why does he only ever ask questions? He never responds (in the way that any rational atheist would) to the Muslim’s answers. This sure ain’t the dialogues of Plato. For example, if you told an atheist that the universe and everything contained therein were evidence for God, you would find yourself faced with a retort faster than you can say Ockham’s Razor.
I invite you to read something else besides the Quran. And to second the Mole, I’d like to hear about some of that alleged scientific evidence. -
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Thank god for Idres Shah, three cheers for mulla Nasrudin.
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- CommentAuthorWael El-Manzalawy
- CommentTimeJun 3rd 2006
To know some information about the scientific accuracy of the Quran, you can visit the following site:
www.islamic-awareness.org/Quran/Science/scientists.html -
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CommentAuthorMole of Production
- CommentTimeJun 3rd 2006 edited
"I say, I am very much impressed by finding true astronomical facts in Qur'an, and for us modern astronomers have been studying very small piece of the universe."
The intense focus on astrology in historical Arab culture is the reason so many 'heavenly' bodies still have Arabic names. I'll give 'em that.
On the other hand:
"There exist statements in the Qur'an shown centuries later to be valid which support knowledge in the Qur'an having been derived from God."
". . . I was astonished by the accuracy of the statements that were recorded in the 7th century AD, before the science of embryology was established."
"It is clear to me that these statements must have come to Muhammad from God, or Allah, because most of this knowledge was not discovered until many centuries later. This proves to me that Muhammad must have been a messenger of God, or Allah."
"The intensive studies of the Qur'an and Hadith in the last four years have revealed a system of classifying human embryos that is amazing since it was recorded in the seventh century A.D... the descriptions in the Qur'an cannot be based on scientific knowledge in the seventh century..."
"I see no evidence to refute the concept that this individual Muhammad had to be developing this information from some place... so I see nothing here in conflict with the concept that divine intervention was involved in what he was able to write..."
"We're talking about 1400 years ago, you have some illiterate person making profound statements that are amazingly accurate, of a scientific nature..."
http://www.islamic-awareness.org/Quran/Science/scientists.html
This analysis, though proclaimed by MDs and PhDs, is not "scientific evidence," as there is not a single citation for any particular passage in the Qur'an or Sunnah, nor is there any citation from a modern medical text given for comparison. This is despite the fact that the (promotional) videos and (Islamic) conference papers from which these quotations were gathered are each well cited with linked footnotes and ISBN numbers.
The veracity of "evidence" may be in the eye of the beholder, but the point of notation in scientific literature is to make comparison easy. There's not even an actual quotation from the Qur'an here, cited or not. There's just vague allusions to the existence of some astounding chunk of text. If it's so "astonishing," you'd think the text itself--even in translation--would be far more compelling than the opinions of a few clearly biased "experts." -
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All this and so much post facto prophesy. How can you reason with the irrational? Now I love being irrational, its fun, its play...it often leads to insight. Mulla Nasridin was asked by his king to travel the world to discover what lay behind the teachings of the different religions. After twenty years Nasrudin returned and the King was overjoyed, wondering what wisdom he had found. Finally Nasrudin, with great pomp, presented the King with his report. Astonished, the King took from Nasrudin a small scrap of paper...on this paper, one word was written...'carrots'. The King was stunned and asked Nasrudin what this meant. Nasrudin replied, 'few know that though there is green above, there is orange underneath, if not tended, they will perish, and there are a great many donkeys associated with them. Islam has a great tradition of humour. And,just in passing, isnt the jihad ultimately an individuals battle against their own dark nature? We insult god when we use him tho justify our own vanity.
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